-=( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- )=- -=( Natural Selection Issue #1 ------------------- Interview : Mark Ludwig )=- -=( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- )=- -=( 0 : Contents --------------------------------------------------------- )=- 1 : Background 2 : Questions and Answers -=( 1 : Background ------------------------------------------------------- )=- Mark Ludwig first came to our attention as author of the "Little Black Book of Computer Viruses" published in the early 90's, which caused a stir by containing details about how to construct computer viruses and included live source code. All in the name of education and protection, of course. Since then he has written many books, most recently "The Little Black Book of Email Viruses", and took some time out from his busy schedule to answer our questions. (For reasons unknown, the picture at the URL mentioned in Mark's interview has disappeared at the time of publication, however it should be back soon). -=( 2 : Questions and Answers -------------------------------------------- )=- Q. Remind us how human you are. What do you do in a normal day? Where do you go for vacation? What do you do for fun? A. My wife and I live on a farm in Belize in Central America with our five boys (ages 1, 4, 8, 10 & 12). So we have animals and crops to take care of, and we homeschool our children. There is no telephone or electricity here, so we run off the generator and go into town to connect to the internet. Gasoline just hit $7/gallon here, so I am experimenting with making fuel ethanol, and in the spring we're planning to build a geodesic dome for our future home. You can see a picture of us if you go to www.ameaglepubs.com/author.html and click on me. In the past few years, we've gone to the beach, or to the states to visit family for vacations. Q. To get a background on your usage of computers, which programs do you use daily? Have you ever been hit by a computer virus? If so, please describe the experience. A. I have several computers, and usually use three in any given day. I have a Win ME machine with business kind of stuff on it - things to do writing, accounting, scanning, video production, etc. To write I use either an old DOS word processor that was freeware and came with the source (which I am writing this on right now), or Quark Express. Then I have a notebook that I use for internet stuff, and another Linux machine. For programming pc stuff, I use TASM or MASM, an old version of Turbo Pascal, C++, VBScript and Perl (depending on the application). Lately it seems like I've been doing more and more web-based stuff. Of course I've been hit by viruses. They've ranged from instantaneous total destruction of everything on the hard disk to just a "humph, something funny's going on here" which showed up a virus when it was tracked down. However, as someone interested in viruses, the experience is quite different from someone who just hates them and wants to avoid them. It's kind of like if you're out in the forest hunting bear, and the bears show up in your camp one night. You'd be happy to see them of course, which most campers would not. Even if they knock down a tent or something, it's an entertaining experience. Q. Why are users so susceptible to "obviously suspicious" attachments in emails about Money, Love, and Anna Kournakova? Are they too curious, too fearless, too busy to notice, or just undereducated about the consequences of their actions? A. Well, human beings often act in irrational ways, especially when it comes to things that excite their passions, like money, sex, etc. Really, a good virus which requires the user to take some kind of action (like open an email) has to do a marketing job just like somebody trying to sell something. I discuss this in detail in my book The Little Black Book of Email Viruses. But, hey, why do people buy pet rocks? Q. As one of the few authors to publish live virus code and technology, why is it that more people haven't followed your lead? Do you ever regret being labelled a "lone ranger"? A. Well, most people are also man pleasers. They get a few people saying that what they're doing is "not nice" and chicken out, so it's not surprising. Honestly, I'm sorry more people haven't followed my lead. I think the world would be a better place if they did. As far as being a "lone ranger", well, I am. How any gringo sitting out in the jungle in Central America could say he's not is beyond me. What I regret is the fact that a "lone ranger" now has a negative image in the civilized world. I mean, it was the Daniel Boones and Davy Crockets who were the great men to generations past. They were trailblazers. Remember, the Lone Ranger was a hero! So why, now, is being a "lone ranger" something negative, an epithet? No, I don't want to run with the herd like a bunch of lemmings, and I don't need a bunch of lemmings telling me I'm okay to feel good about myself. Q. Are you invited as a speaker to any security or virus conferences? Is your image "tainted" in the eyes of other professionals due to the open style of your virus research? A. Occasionally. I'm not big on seeking such things out. I honestly am not interested in having a "high profile". Other professionals . . . well, I suppose some still hate my guts for the original Little Black Book of Computer Viruses. But for the most part, decent technical information about viruses is still so hard to get that you can't be too picky about where it comes from. So they buy and read my books (if they have any sense at all) and that's what counts. Q. Have you ever held back technology in your books due to personal ethics, or legal issues? How do you go about balancing your freedom of speech with responsible writing? A. Oh, absolutely. Nowadays, when one simple virus could cause a hundred million infections in 24 hours, I don't feel comfortable with publishing code that somebody who thought I was writing "Computer Viruses for Compleat Idiots" could just type in and cause that kind of problem. That would definitely be irresponsible. My goal is to give people a technical education in my books. That requires down and dirty details, code, etc. It is ridiculous to say that you can really learn about viruses from some book that tells you "Now insert your antivirus CD in the CD-ROM drive . . . " On the other hand, you don't need to sit down with a few blocks of Plutonium and make a mess in order to learn about criticality. It's useful to have some hands on experience if you are really going to be able to make an atomic bomb instead of just talking about it, but its generally wasteful to actually make one and set it off just to learn how. The only time a virus of mine every really made a show in the wild was the Stealth-2 Boot Sector Virus. The reason that happened is because the anti -virus community was going around saying that the viruses in The Little Black Book were lame because I wasn't a good virus programmer. They basically dared me and said I couldn't do it. So I took Stealth-1 and made it more aggressive in the 2nd printing of The Litlle Black Book. It made the top 10 list for a while, but it was benign. It didn't cause any harm, except to take a little disk space and set off scanners. Q. As part of your work it is necessary to write and collect some viruses for experimentation. But do you consider this as a purely professional side effect, or is it more of a hobby? A. Oh, it is purely professional, but fun too. A scientist in the jungle studying insects does it for professional reasons, but finds some enjoyment in it too. I pity the man who doesn't find some fun in his work! Q. With your new book, "The Little Black Book of Email Viruses" what styles of virus technology do you discuss? What reader demographic do you write for? A. I go into detail about viruses that are propagated by email. I leave aside internet-based worms like Code Red. The book is intended for anyone who isn't afraid of a little coding. If you have experience with Visual Basic or any of its variants (VBA, VBScript, etc.) then 90% of the book will be easy to understand, but even if not, the book will teach you. I do get into some machine level stuff when discussing exploits against Outlook Express. Q. Would the average technically literate reader of "The Little Black Book of Email Viruses" be able to progress to writing their own viruses, without the use of additional books and materials? A. Absolutely yes. No problem. Q. With virus technology (and technology in general) moving on so quickly, how relevant do you feel your previous virus-based books are today? A. Well, you have to understand that the ideas are basically the same, whether expressed in VBA in the context of the internet or expressed in assembler on an individual PC. Older viruses now offer the researcher an important way to become proficient in the basic ideas and technology without posing a major threat. I mean, if a DOS virus you are experimenting with accidentally gets away, it will probably not get very far nowadays. In that sense, these books are still useful. Also, Computer Viruses, Artificial Life and Evolution is completely relevant today yet, although written in 1993. Its warnings are perhaps more pertinent than ever. By the way, as of next week, you'll be able to pick up some of my earlier works FOR FREE at www.ameaglepubs.com in electronic editions. Q. In round numbers, how many total copies of your virus books have been sold? A. I don't really know off the top of my head - tens of thousands. Q. What do you think the chances are of seeing evolving computer viruses in our life time? A. Much more likely, now that government entities have gotten interested in viruses. They have the resources to push the technology faster and further than a bunch of hackers who do it out of the love of learning, or spite, or whatever. Q. With the threat of another war in the Gulf, do you think viruses could be used to positive ends by the military in any way? How? A. Well the military is so computerized, it's absurd to think that viruses could not or would not be used to disrupt those computers and gain some advantage. The more computerized side (the US) has the most to lose in that regard, though. Recent internet worms have all the earmarks of a careful probing of the internet to determine its weaknesses by someone who could be developing a capability for future use. Q. Is it too far fetched to believe that someone will one day harbour viruses under their right to bear arms in the American Constitution? A. Personally I'd go for the first amendment (free speech/press). The second amendment is so riddled with (bullet) holes already. Q. With the rapid discovery and implementation cycle of virus technology, what do you fear most as a "worst case scenario" arising from its misuse? A. A virus is released on the internet by persons unknown effectively shutting the internet, and especially internet commerce down for a week or two. The government then responds to this crisis by implementing all kinds of controls on the internet to insure its safety and monitor everything and everyone. Gone, then, is the freedom of information exchange on the internet, replaced with licensing and lots of regulations. Gone also is any kind of freedom or privacy for any computer that ever connects to the internet. Q. Conversely, what benefits from advances in virus technology and philosophy do you look forward to most? A. Well, as I discussed in my book, a good email virus might be able to get information out that governments want to keep shut up. Such things could possibly influence the world in positive ways. Imagine a world in which everyone is wired up: Government A starts telling lies to incite its people to go to war with Government B. Government B can present a good case that everything Government A is saying is a lie, but Government A's media isn't about to present their case. Government B could present its case in a virus, and put it into the hands of a majority of people living under Government A, thereby undermining support for the war. Thus, a virus could be used to get the truth out despite powerful interests who want to make sure it doesn't get out. That could stop wars, genocides and all kinds of atrocities, and hold evil men accountable for their acts. Q. Where do you see your personal and professional lives progressing in the immediate future? What future projects of yours are there for us to look forward to? A. I may do a book on internet worms soon. I also want to write some books on assembly language programming. That seems to be becoming a dark art. Personally, we'll stay here in Central America and watch the corn grow. Check up on my publisher's website to keep posted: www.ameaglepubs.com. -=( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- )=- -=( Natural Selection Issue #1 --------------- (c) 2002 Feathered Serpents )=- -=( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- )=-